In the sixth episode of Irish Books, Chris Murray and guest Madeleine Callaghan (Senior Lecturer in the School of English at the University of Sheffield) dive into the cerebral world of Sally Rooney’s fourth novel, Intermezzo.
The discussion moves beyond the typical "millennial" labels often applied to Rooney, instead framing the novel as a rigorous exploration of grief, sibling rivalry, and the complicated sex lives of two brothers in contemporary Dublin.
A Symmetrical Crisis: The Koubek Brothers
Set in the months following the death of their father in 2022, the novel follows the divergent paths of Ivan and Peter Koubek. Rooney constructs a symmetrical set of relationships that challenge conventional social double standards.
Ivan (22): A neurodivergent former chess prodigy whose career stagnated during his father’s illness. He falls into a "heartbreaking" love with Margaret, an arts director in her mid-30s.
Peter (32): A successful lawyer who finds himself divided between two women: the much younger Naomi, who sells explicit content online, and his ex-girlfriend Sylvia, an intellectual peer living with chronic pain.
The experts discuss how Peter attempts a version of the Cartesian division between body and soul, falsely categorising Naomi as purely sexual and Sylvia as purely intellectual - a fantasy that collapses as the women assert their own personhood.
The Chess Premise: No True Openings
Murray notes how the novel duplicates the logic of chess, where players study "umpteen ways of setting up the early game". However, the discussion reveals a darker reality: in Rooney’s world, there are no "true openings".
Characters are constantly haunted by ghosts of the past - whether it is the ghost of Sylvia in Peter’s mind or the memory of a happy family that no longer exists. This lack of a fresh start leads to a "floating free in the void of grief," where personalities and bereavement become inextricably tangled.
A World Without Friendship?
One of the more provocative points of the episode is the observation of how little friendship exists in this novel.
Isolation: Everything seems pinned to sexual partnering, with characters unable to connect properly with their mother or even each other
The Symbol of the Dog: The late father’s dog, Alexei, becomes a powerful symbol of "responsibility and the evasion of responsibility". While Peter and others treat the dog as a "shit machine" to be discarded, only Ivan attempts to answer the straightforward question of the animal’s need
The Irish-Russian Connection
Callaghan argues that Rooney is uniting the Russian tradition of "anatomising the self" with the Irish literary tradition.
Serious Intent: The experts note a po-faced quality to the novel - a lack of the tragic shambles humor found in Joyce or Beckett
Intellectual Elitism: The novel snipes at the corporate class of modern Ireland (personified by the character Darren), favoring the "bright" and "intelligent" characters who can distinguish between Dostoevsky and Joyce.
Listen to the Full Discussion
Is Intermezzo a perfect novel, or does it leave its characters "marooned in their own stasis"? Join Chris and Maddy as they navigate the thickening connections and enmeshed webs of Rooney’s latest work.
Listen to Episode 6: Sally Rooney’s Intermezzo wherever you get your podcasts.
The Irish Books Podcast is proudly produced by East Coast Studio with support from the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Embassy of Ireland Australia, and Monash University.
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